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In May 2024, we had the opportunity to conduct an interview with Ronald G. Wayne, one of the co-founders of Apple Inc. This interview provides insights into his career, personal interests, and thoughts on the evolution of technology and his interesting relationship with the company that he co-founded.
“I came from the world of telephones and never had an iPhone until last year”
About Ronald G. Wayne
Ronald G. Wayne was born on May 17, 1934, in Cleveland, Ohio. He is best known as one of the co-founders of Apple Inc., along with Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. Wayne drew the first Apple logo, wrote the partnership agreement, and provided administrative oversight for the new venture. After leaving Apple, Wayne continued his career in engineering and product development, contributing to various fields including electronics, slot machine design, and numismatics.
Ronald G. Wayne Interview
1. In previous discussions, you’ve extensively covered your early involvement with Apple and your decision to leave. Could you share more about the personal interests and activities that have fulfilled you since departing from the tech world?
1
After I’d parted from Jobs and Wozniak, on very friendly terms, the rest of my life’s career included two exceptional positions. The first was a Job Shop who sent me to Lawrence Livermore Laboratories where I was hired on as a draftsman – until they learned that I was a compulsive model builder. LLL, as you know, is known as a “big science” facility, then engaged on the government’s “Mirror Fusion Reactor” project. Until then, their “model building” had been done by outside vendors in that field, but when the Lab found me, I was instantly assigned to establish their first on-site model shop, with myself as its manager. The next two years were the most fun I’d ever had, at a “job” – but the facility rules limited job-shoppers to two years.
2
Some years later, I’d gained a permanent 16-year-long post as Chief Engineer at a small California firm (Thor Electronics) – a position perfectly fitted to my style of product development – and to any small firm who needed someone who’d wear six hats. As their Engineer, I was also a circuit designer, prototype machinist, tech writer, draftsman, and documentation manager. In short, I could wear 6 hats, and loved it. For me, it was my “dream” style of engineering, while to my employer, it saved him from needing six more people. In my career, I’d been a Draftsman, designer, Junior Engineer, and a Chief Engineer, all over a span of forty years – and on only a high-school diploma – with no other formal education of any kind. Yet this was not a history in education that I’d suggest for anyone else. In my case, I’d just lacked the means for any other course.
2. After your departure from Apple, you returned to the electronics industry before venturing into stamp and coin dealing. Could you describe what drew you to numismatics and how you have seen the industry evolve over the years?
3
I’d bound my career to technology, even after my retirement. Living in Ormond Beach, Florida, I’d then hired into a shop named Ocean Design, as an aide to their Chief Engineer. They were producing sub-sea connectors, and though not in my field, was still interesting. As ocean-floor communications connectors, they carried up to 10,000 volts, and were “under-sea wet mate-able, but only when fully discharged. While there, I’d proposed a “hot-mate/wet-mate” sub-sea connector, but they chose not to invest in a prototype.
You asked “why philately and numismatics?” I’d been a stamp collector since childhood. Then, after WWII, and the Bretton-Woods Conference, where they abandoned the worldwide Gold Standard – I became very concerned at the world’s replacement of “silver and gold” money (hard currency which had functioned reliably for 4000 years), with worthless “paper-money”. I’d read Adam Smith’s “Wealth of Nations” and could foresee the inevitable collapse of the world’s monetary systems, all at once! In the coin business, I gained quick access to cheap silver street coin, preparatory to the coming collapse. I’d studied this since 1986, and you’ll find my results in my book – “Counterfeit Trust” – available from me, or from Amazon.
3. You’ve expressed a strong passion for designing slot machines. Your Atari cohort Allan Alcorn also shared that passion. How well did you know each other, and did you ever collaborate on slots?
4
In fact, I knew Al Alcorn very well and held him in exceptionally high esteem, but to be candid – until your question, I had no idea that he’d harbored any such interests. Truth to tell, I don’t recall that we ever exchanged ten words on the subject. Sorry.
4. Do you keep in touch with Woz or any of your other associates from Atari?
5
Over the years, Steve Wozniak and his wife Janet, had established a strong and very friendly relationship with me. In fact, they have called on me more than once to sign (with Steve) a variety of artifacts, which Janet then sold through her marketing activity. They have both expressed concern, and a desire to help during hazardous events in my life, such as my serious bout with Pneumonia, several years back. However, there are certain “social” conventions to which I’ve committed myself, in my relationship with them – though on no occasion have they ever asked me to conform to these. Quite simply, in my view, the difference in our financial status has compelled me to never initiate contact with them, except to express holiday greetings, or (on very rare occasions) to suggest some kind of joint marketing activity.
Aside from the above, I’m really not much of a socializer, though I’ve had many social contacts with people like Dan Kottke, Al Alcorn and I’ve even had a few casual encounters with Nolan Bushnell.
5. When was your last interaction with Steve Jobs and what did you discuss?
6
At the time of my nearly final chat with Steve Jobs, I’d called him to ask a favor. I’d just completed my autobiography, “Adventures of an Apple Founder”, for which Steve Wozniak had so graciously written the Forward. During that call, I asked Mr. Jobs if he’d like to add any comments. His response was simple and direct, as he said: “…I don’t regard you as a co-founder”. To the best of my recollection, those were the last words that we’d ever exchanged – except for one casual meeting at the campus, between Jobs, Wozniak and myself, a few years before Jobs’ death.
6. What advice would you give to young entrepreneurs about managing equity and ownership in startups?
7
To be perfectly candid, business of most kinds is totally beyond my expertise. Yet on one occasion, I’d actually established a corporation, based in Las Vegas, for the development of gaming machines – before I’d ultimately realized that I had no business being in business. For example, though I’d successfully fulfilled several projects – on customer orders – and three of these had been successfully qualified by the Nevada State Gaming Commission, I’d never made a dime out of my efforts. Within seven months it all folded, and I spent the next year and a half paying off all the creditors, one hundred cents on the dollar and buying back every share of stock that I’d sold. I did that in spite of friends and relatives asking why I’d done so when my corporate shell made all such reimbursements unnecessary? My answer was simple – so I could look in the mirror without cringing. In brief, I regard myself as the last person in the world from whom to seek business or professional advice – except on one issue. Whenever a younger person has asked my advice on what profession or work to pursue, my answer has always been the same. Find a kind of profession or work that you enjoy so much that you’d be willing to do it for nothing – and you’ll never “work” a day in your life – because you’ll simply be having too much fun. It’s advice I’ve personally followed all my working life.
7. In a 2017 interview with Vice, you said you had never used an iPhone. Is that still the case? What’s kept you from adopting the tech?
8
To be candid, I’m now 90 years old and spent the first 60 of them developing simple and effective ways of doing things. Moreover, in the next 20, I’d settled into exercising the skills I’d gained and the tools and devices that I’d come to master. Between 1976 and 1990 when asked what computer I had, I said “None”, they blurted “Why not?”. My reply was “What would I do with it?” Then a friend asked me to write a short story, and I typed it out for him. After a few weeks, I asked if he’d liked it. He replied, “I couldn’t see it through the tears – I need it in a form I can use – like WordPerfect!” A friend cobbled a machine together, loaded with WordPerfect, Email, and a game. That machine then gave me ten years of good service. I came from the world of telephones and never had an iPhone until last year when a friend got me one. In my point of view, I use it as a phone and little else beyond the date and time. Young people, without preset minds, take in worlds of the newest technologies – as they should! But for older folk, like myself, the crevices of the mind are packed full of technologies that no longer exist, and I’m compelled to live with that. Yet the young cannot understand why they can’t pick it all up on the first bounce – like they.
8. Have you been a user of other Apple technologies over the years?
9
To be completely honest, about fifteen years ago, as a gratuity, following an interview, I was given an iPad. I lent it to a relative to figure it out, and then to come back and show me how to use it. I never saw it again. Then, last year, a friend gave me an Apple iPhone for my birthday, with some basic instructions. Then finally, about a month ago, I bought my first Apple Computer, for $1300.00. Another friend is setting it up, and I should have it operational within a week, filled with the contents of my old Dell, transferred into it. That is the total extent to which I’ve been involved with Apple products, throughout my lifetime. As I’d said earlier, after three-quarters of a century of learning the practices and the technology of that earlier age, a person of my age cannot possibly wake up one day with a determination to wipe his mind of a lifetime’s learning experiences and then just jump into the modern world with a child’s point of view (and physiology). In brief, my needs and interests, during my lifetime, were focused on my needs and interests at that moment in time – and on getting through the significant things which needed – immediately – to be done. That was my life, and so far as I knew the same was true of most of the people around me – family, friends or whoever. But I beg you further to appreciate, that the views I express relate only to my own life’s experiences.
9. Reflecting on your vast experience from engineering to your entrepreneurial endeavors, what are some life lessons or philosophies that you find most vital for the younger generations?
10
There is the story of the young lad being instructed on how to succeed at life:
- (Father) “If you’re to live a rewarding life, your Hallmarks should be integrity and wisdom.”
- The son then asked: What’s “integrity?”
- The father responded: “If you promise to deliver a job by a certain date – do it – even if it breaks you.”
- The son thought a moment longer and then questioned further: what’s Wisdom?”
- With a sly grin, the Father replied: “Don’t make such promises!”
- When in any situation which one might call “A gamble”, be it physical, financial or any other kind, ALWAYS WEIGH “WHAT YOU HAVE TO GAIN, AGAINST WHAT YOU HAVE TO LOSE!
- Even if you believe in nothing else – and even if no one believes in you – BELIEVE IN YOURSELF!
- LEARN, LEARN, LEARN! But remember above all else, what you believe isn’t nearly as valuable as what you can “prove”.
10. As someone who has witnessed the evolution of Silicon Valley’s culture from its infancy, how do you assess the current cultural dynamics within tech industries, especially regarding innovation and competition?
11
My sincere apologies, but I must decline to answer this question, on the premise that as one who has never followed the subtleties of this industry, I hold absolutely no qualifications to do so.
11. You were a non-techie in a tech-heavy industry. What helped you navigate that?
This might seem somewhat ironic, but what helped me navigate the tech-heavy industry despite not being a techie myself was a combination of curiosity, adaptability, and a willingness to learn. While I may not have possessed the technical expertise of some of my colleagues, I made up for it by being open to new ideas and approaches. I was never afraid to ask questions or seek clarification when I encountered something I didn’t understand, and I believe this willingness to learn and adapt allowed me to contribute in meaningful ways despite my non-technical background.
12. Throughout your career, you’ve worn many hats, from draftsman to chief engineer to stamp and coin dealer. How do you manage to excel in such diverse roles?
Adapting to diverse roles has always been a necessity for me rather than a choice. I attribute my ability to excel in these varied roles to a few key factors. Firstly, I have a natural curiosity and a passion for learning, which has allowed me to quickly grasp new concepts and acquire new skills as needed. Additionally, I approach each role with dedication and a strong work ethic, always striving to deliver the best results possible. Finally, I believe in the power of versatility and flexibility, being willing to take on different responsibilities and adapt to changing circumstances as required. By embracing these principles, I’ve been able to thrive in a variety of roles throughout my career.
13. Your journey has been marked by both successes and setbacks. What lessons have you learned from failure, and how have they shaped your approach to life and work?
Failure has been an inevitable part of my journey, but I’ve always viewed it as an opportunity for growth rather than a setback. Each failure has taught me valuable lessons about resilience, perseverance, and the importance of learning from mistakes. I’ve learned that setbacks are not the end of the road but rather stepping stones to future success. By embracing failure as a natural part of the learning process, I’ve been able to develop a resilient mindset that allows me to bounce back stronger than before. This mindset has shaped my approach to both life and work, instilling in me the determination to keep pushing forward in the face of adversity and to never give up on my goals and aspirations.
14. As someone who has witnessed the evolution of technology and industry over several decades, what advice would you give to young professionals entering the workforce today?
To young professionals entering the workforce today, I would offer the following advice:
- Stay curious and never stop learning. The pace of change in today’s world is rapid, and those who are adaptable and eager to acquire new skills will thrive.
- Embrace failure as a learning opportunity. Don’t be discouraged by setbacks but rather use them as fuel for growth and improvement.
- Build strong relationships and cultivate a network of mentors and peers who can offer support and guidance along the way.
- Be flexible and open-minded. The career path you envision for yourself may evolve over time, so be willing to explore new opportunities and adapt to changing circumstances.
- Above all, stay true to yourself and your values. Success is not just about climbing the corporate ladder or achieving financial wealth, but about finding fulfillment and making a positive impact in the world.
15. Looking back on your life and career, what are you most proud of, and what legacy do you hope to leave behind?
Reflecting on my life and career, I am most proud of the relationships I’ve built and the impact I’ve had on those around me. Whether it’s through my work as an engineer, my contributions to the tech industry, or my interactions with colleagues and friends, I hope that I’ve been able to make a positive difference in people’s lives. As for my legacy, I hope to be remembered as someone who approached life with integrity, curiosity, and a passion for learning. I hope that my experiences and insights can serve as inspiration for future generations, encouraging them to pursue their passions, embrace challenges, and always strive for excellence.
1 Lawrence Livermore Laboratories: A federal research facility in Livermore, California, focusing on national security, science, and engineering.
2 Mirror Fusion Reactor: A type of nuclear fusion reactor that uses magnetic mirrors to contain and control the plasma.
3 Bretton-Woods Conference: A meeting in 1944 where Allied nations established the International Monetary Fund (IMF) and the World Bank, and agreed on a system of fixed exchange rates based on the U.S. dollar.
4 Allan Alcorn: An American pioneering engineer and computer scientist, best known for creating Pong, one of the first video games.
5 Steve Wozniak: Co-founder of Apple Inc., known for his design of the Apple I and Apple II computers.
6 Steve Jobs: Co-founder of Apple Inc., and a key figure in the personal computer revolution.
7 Nevada State Gaming Commission: A regulatory agency that oversees the gaming industry in Nevada.
8 Vice Interview: An interview with Ronald G. Wayne conducted by Vice, where he admitted to never having used an iPhone.
9 Apple iPad: A line of tablet computers designed, developed, and marketed by Apple Inc., which run the iOS and iPadOS mobile operating systems.
10 Adam Smith: An 18th-century Scottish economist and philosopher, best known for his book “The Wealth of Nations” which laid the foundations of classical free market economic theory.
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